And then…
The Cassie Edwards debacle continues its downward spiral.
The AP picked up the story, featuring Nora Roberts. Signet’s half-assed response of “Ms Edwards did nothing wrong” is included, but the reporter also garnered a quote from John M. Barrie, the guy who invented software designed to sniff out academic plagiarism. He says, “Ms. Edwards’ unattributed use of other peoples’ work as her own definitely constitutes plagiarism.”
I think y’all should know that RWA Pres Sherry Lewis isn’t qualified to spot plagiarism. Her words, not mine. Again, from the AP article: “It’s not clear-cut to me,” she said. “You can see similarities in the passages, but I’m not qualified to make that assertion.”
Hand that woman a Ginsu knife. It slices, it dices, it detects intellectual theft.
CNN, FoxNews, MSNBC and Yahoo are also all carrying the story. At the time I am writing this, it is CNN’s 10th most popular story. Overall. Wars, politics, and plagiarism.
I’ve written a rough draft of a letter to Penguin/Signet, but I’m letting it simmer overnight. I realize I have a tendency to fly off the handle and I’d rather send a letter that sounds like a literate, educated person wrote it rather than a rabid fishwife.
It’s depressing as hell. Because unless Penguin does the right thing — and I’m cynical enough not to hold my breath for that — what can be done? I can talk to people about it. Point them toward the evidence. Encourage them not to buy her books. But it feels like saving one wobbly dish while the other fall and crash.
I think it’s important enough that I’ll be bringing it up at my next RWA chapter meeting. Watch some of them be rabid CE fangrrls. I’ll have to scoop up my entrails with a shovel.
But this is a good hill to die on.
20 Responses to “And then…”
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TICKLE MY FANTASY
Out Now! from Samhain Publishing
CAROLINA WOLF
from Samhain Publishing
I think you’re right, Sela. I’ve said it already elsewhere, but I’m sure the current hope is that by the time they have to review it, it will be a case of “Plaigarism? Cassie who?” and the world will go on its merry way.
I hope Signet takes the right approach to this, but like you, I’m not holding my breath.
I agree she shouldn’t have done it, and should answer for her actions, but…and this may make some people angry, but did she really do it intentionally?
Is anyone looking at it from her point of view? Do we really know how she feels? I’m sure she is upset.
I’m sorry, but I hate to see an author’s whole world tumble down around them when we all know that author’s put their heart and soul in a book and she has written so many.
Is all of her story palgerism? Or is it jut a few passages? I know that doesn’t make it right and doesn’t make a difference, but I read on her site that she was doing her best to make her books more accurate. So, for the sake of accuracy, she made a huge mistake.
I don’t know, but I feel sorry for her and yes, she has been a favorite author of mine for a very long time. I cut my teeth, so to speak, on Cassie Edwards novels. She is one of the first authors who made me love romance novels.
I just don’t understand how people can just jump on a bandwagon and take her down without giving her a chance to answer to what she has done.
I just find this so very sad for so many people.
Cia
I know, Cia. And believe me, I completely understand how you feel. In fact, I feel terrible for her. I think there’s an excellent chance that she copied those passages because she thought that because it was out of copyright, it was now legal. Scratch that. Not unethical.
But ethics and the law don’t always occupy the same space, and ignorance of the law does not excuse you from punishment. And just because you didn’t *think* it was wrong, doesn’t make it all right.
I’m not on the “Bash Cassie Edwards” bandwagon. I’m on the “Down with Plagiarism” bandwagon. I’d be just as upset about this if it was any other author. And no matter who it is, I’d still want them to pay — cancel all upcoming contracts and pull the remainder of all books off shelves.
There is still a line that cannot be crossed. I know it’s tempting to say, “But she didn’t know any better” or “But it was only a few passages.” It can’t be allowed to continue.
No matter which way this goes, I seriously doubt there will be another CE book, and for that — for you — I express my sympathy.
Cia: From an academic standpoint, her use of the quoted passages without any citation of the sources is plagiarism.
I went to a community college for two years, and plagiarism was explained and discussed in several of my classes. Now, a good number of the people taking these classes were folks in their thirties or older that were going back to school to get their degree. Something I remember quite clearly because it surprised me so much — most of the older people didn’t know that taking a couple passages without citation was plagiarism. They thought that it was plagiarism if you took the entire thing, not just bits and pieces.
It’s possible that this may be the case with Cassie Edwards, too.
That being said, I have read articles with her commentary on the situation, and she has pretty much said that she didn’t lift passages — which is obviously not true; there are too many similarities to published work for it to be coincidence. If she truly didn’t understand, I would think that her reaction would be different.
I agree that it can’t continue and plagerism is horrid. I really wish she could get a second chance if she didn’t know what she was doing was wrong for the sake of making her book accurate.
I have several of her books, have read almost all of them, and I will keep her books on my shelves no matter what because I love her books.
That’s all I’ll say on the matter. I just pray that things work out for the best for everyone concerned.
Cia
If she didn’t know that what she did was wrong (and I can see how she might not have), I wish that she would admit such and apologize — handle the situation with dignity, instead of insisting that she’s done nothing wrong. That’s what has me most upset about the whole deal.
Nonny,
I feel she didn’t know. I am sure lots of people don’t know about what all plagerism involves.
I just hope for her sake, she doesn’t have to stop writing.
Cia
I think this hit her right out of the blue and I am sure she is still trying to absorb it. I think the shock of it may be why her actions are as they are. Too, her attorney and I am sure she has one, may have advised her what to say. We don’t know what’s going on, on her side.
I hope that she comes out with a statement. I think that would help very much for people to understand her side.
“I hope that she comes out with a statement. I think that would help very much for people to understand her side.”
Me too.
What would constitute her making amends? I’m not trying to be flippant here, either.
What could she do to convince her publisher — who may not care since she makes money — that she should have another chance?
What could she do to convince her fans — who may or may not care if they truly adore her — that they should continue spending their hard earned money on her books?
What could she possibly do to convince the romance writing community — which overwhelmingly cares about plagiarism — that she deserves another shot?
I don’t know, Sela. If unintentional, then I think she should have another chance. I don’t know if she will even be able to make a comeback if that happened now with all the bad publicity. I am just so sad over the fact that someone who has devoted almost her whole life to writing is going to loose her writing career that she worked hard for.
Cia
Oooh, now Cia, someone could make a case out of what you just said: “her writing career that she worked so hard for.”
One of the points I’m trying to make is that she didn’t do all that work. She piggybacked on someone else’s hard, original work.
True Sela, but the plagerism involved research material only right? I knwo she gives credit to the poems or passages she uses before each chapter. That is why I thought the reference passages were unintentional and her not knowing that she had to list those too.
You know Signet can say whatever they want to about legalities, but it’s still not right. If they’re sending out the message that it’s okay to plagiarize, maybe the public humiliation that Edwards is going through will send out the opposite message.
“Only” research? I’m glad the people who put blood, sweat and tears into their work are happy to hear that it’s “only” research.
We must be careful how we parse our words, Cia. They are, after all, our stock in trade.
And in fact, the very issue you mention lends credence to my argument. She knew enough to credit sources that people might actually recognize, but decided that more obscure writers (and some not so obscure — merely out-of-date) didn’t deserve the same courtesy.
I understand where you are coming from and everyone else. I don’t condone plagerism or what she done, but have enjoyed her books.
I can’t come up with a version of events in which her actions were unintentional. Copy and paste… and many of the phrases just WOULD NOT stay in one’s head.
Couple that with (sorry fans) how rabidly American Indians despise her passive racism. Sorry, anyone using the term SAVAGE so liberally owes all Indians an apology before plagiarism even comes into it. She’s a terrible racist.
Making someone an object of sexual titillation is still making someone an object. Injecting archaic ideas of savage inclinations barely “tamed” for the purposes of titillation is sick and racist. If that was my INITIAL exposure to her judgment I have absolutely NO reason to trust hr judgment elsewhere.
Her claims of Indian ancestry were long ago dismissed by the tribe, btw.
*shrug* I actually hope this does some good. Maybe people learn something?
I’ve said before that I’m no fan of her books — I don’t like the style and I’m not crazy about the content. But I’m working hard to keep that off to the side because I’m still so damn angry that she stole someone else’s work!
Just found my way here today, so my apologies for beating what many consider a dead horse.
Cia said above thread, “I feel she didn’t know. I am sure lots of people don’t know about what all plagerism involves.”
My first reaction when this broke over at the SmartBitches was that, “of course EVERYONE knows what plagiarism is!” I have since come to realize that no, indeed, there are many a reader and–worse in my eyes–many a *writer* who don’t. know. what. plagiarism is.
Shocking? Yes. More than that, I think it’s scary.
And that’s why I’m following what different writers have to say on the matter, and how they view proper use of literary allusion, attribution and acknowledgment, quoting, what have you.
Ms Carsen, than you for your calm and rational posts on this issue, here and elsewhere.
Thank YOU, azteclady! I read your posts and comments at SBTB and DA with great interest.
I’m finally caught up enough in other areas of my life to wade back into the fray, so I’ll likely see you on the other blogs as this continues to develop.